So long as people are being honest anyway. Some have already mentioned that they would be willing to play along with expectations in order to gain information or resources.
I'm debating whether or not it's worth my time to do so.
[ it's something he's been thinking on himself, really. there are certain factors he hasn't quite told, uh, anybody about this particular tour and what it means for him and he's been debating the pros and cons of playing along since the first half of the crew turned up yesterday. ]
We have eight weeks. If there are no signs of results in the first few weeks, that's enough time to change the course of action. [ he does not expect this to sway scien one way or another, he's mostly talking out loud. ] That's how I've been thinking of approaching this.
Risk assessment and modification of behavior is reasonable. The information gathering stage is an important one when determining how to tackle a threat.
[he's in agreement. it's a sensible plan. but - ]
It would simply be too obvious if I suddenly became overtly obedient, and I could never maintain it over a long period of time.
[sometimes you come out the gate swinging with the awareness you're a fucking asshole]
[ okay, well. he sort of just huffs because he can appreciate the self-awareness. it's sort of the way shoma is self-aware this might come back to bite him in the ass later, but. ]
Then let me try it and see what happens. Any results I get, you'll hear directly from me.
[ he literally has an assistant so he's, like, reasonably sure scien won't need his results but also again unfortunately he sort of respects this man already. ]
[ oh. that worked. okay. he's not really used to people like scien actually listening to him when he bothers showing he has a backbone about things, so he didn't exactly prepare a bargaining tool. ]
Answers of a different kind, depending on how many you'd be willing to give me. [ and even then... ]
When negotiating, you don't give the other party a chance to deny you. There is no 'depending'. You state what you seek, and navigate from there. Appearing flexible to start with will only give you a worse deal.
I refuse to tell you anything that could allow you to replicate the process of developing Relivers in your home world. No one with a normal lifespan needs the technology, and defying death is a fool's errand.
[ they really don't, actually! which is why he kind of squares his shoulders with that. ]
We don't need that kind of development. [ it's the way he says it that might stand out given how firm the tone is. ] But I wouldn't ask about replicating something like that. I just have questions about how it works and how you got to that result.
[ honestly even if he were given a play by play he'd never replicate it. he just has an interest. ]
[in the sense that scien now expects things from shoma, because he's not going to turn down someone who comes to him with a deal and eagerness.]
As your first advance payment, and because it seemed to tear you apart earlier, the first thing you need to know is this:
The development of my technology required sacrifice. Mine, and other's. I decided early what I was willing to give up for the sake of my goals. It is not possible for the average person.
[this time, scien doesn't say it with arrogance - it's not a matter of intelligence. rather, he speaks it with a certain gravity; a statement of fact. a warning.]
[ that's fine, shoma expects things from himself, too.
this does not surprise him. you don't give that kind of advice out without having lived it yourself. ]
What would you consider yourself if not an average person? [ because he also does not assume scien is average, but even this is beyond genius, he thinks. ] ...and what kind of sacrifice?
Until recently, I was comfortable being regarded as a god. It's what people chose to call me, after experiencing the technology I developed. Even some at the Institute still call it a miracle, when I think of it as anything but.
But more than anything, I consider myself an observer of the world. Someone separate from other people, in how I interact and how I make my choices.
[things are ever so slightly different now, but this was the mindset that led him to developing his insane fucking tech.]
The sacrifices vary - but you've read my profile the same as any other. For now, I'm sure you can guess.
[he doesn't mind going into more detail later, but that can be a future payment once their deal plays out]
he doesn't reply, mostly absorbing these words and letting them seep into little crevices in his brain and considering all of this carefully. of course a man who created something to extend a life would be reveled as a god. and of course a man who accomplished something this big would be fine being thought of as such. after all, when you have people's lives in your hands and you can give or take away, what else would you be?
the thing, too, is scien talks and shoma hears the words phrased a little differently, thinking more about other people who have lived separately from people and observe the world.
"this world which you have lost all faith in is a false one. by reaching the real world, you can rid yourself of all your complications and concerns."
no, wait, stop. those are two separate things. focus, shoma.
okay. so that makes sense. someone who doesn't fully meet the same level as other people, who's working to save humanity but in a way that doesn't actually vibe with all the good feelings a person could have. this still...very much sounds familiar.
he doesn't ask what changed to make scien stop regarding himself as a god, exactly, but he thinks about the profiles. in a way...he also sort of suspected this. it wasn't so much that he was hoping to be wrong, but the confirmation is what he was looking for.
that, too, sounds familiar.
even knowing all of this, he doesn't necessarily think he's made a bad choice striking this kind of deal. but he's aware they have to have an exchange and he can't just have all of the answers immediately.
so eventually, he says: ]
I can guess. [ just to confirm. ] Your answer's...given me a lot of context to consider. [ . . . ] ...I'll bring you anything I can get from them over the course of the coming week.
[that's his simple answer, and he trusts that the exchange will come. at this point, shoma's shown that he has intelligence and perseverance—without question, that's the type of individual that scien would welcome into the institute.
for better or worse.
but he has a question that's been on the tip of his tongue, that's had him curious since they first began their thought experiments. there's just been too many people around.]
Who is it?
The person you're trying to save.
[himself? or someone else? or is it the whole world?
perhaps scien is off his mark - but he can't help but wonder what a boy this young might be searching for, and what he could need, to even have his wondering bring him to someone like scien brofiise. someone who saves others, but at such high costs.]
[ he isn't wrong. shoma's an introvert, and shoma's someone who tends to do his best work alone, but he has intelligence and perseverance to back him up the entire way. half the time, he's pretty sure it's the only thing that keeps him going. what would he do if he let himself just...not pursue these questions? what would happen if he didn't bother trying to understand things further?
he both did and did not expect this question. he already knows the answer won't be satisfactory either, but since he doesn't have another form of payment at the moment he's fine giving it away. ]
It's unsalvageable. [ this is matter-of-fact and strangely serious for someone his age, like a statement with zero wiggle room. ] ...it's nothing like a world plagued by a disease that kills people before they hit twenty-three. I just...like to ask to fully understand things. How people come to conclusions and what lengths people will go to.
[ are the answers the same across universes? or do circumstances change a person's drive to take other people down with them? ]
scien thinks of all the researchers who come to the institute, desperate to find a cure because one of their loved ones is already dying - and they don't want to be a reliver, even though that's the very thing they study. he thinks they don't plan ahead enough. everything and everyone dies. even if his understanding of death is warped by his own technology, he knows that if he's not careful, finality will come for him as well.
so he doesn't argue, and he doesn't reassure shoma that everything will work out.]
Then do you have no goal?
[he asks out of pure curiosity. is there an endpoint to the understanding? is there a decision shoma will have to make in the future? or is this simple wondering?
for whatever reason, scien doubts it's the latter. there must be an origin point.]
[ wouldn't it be funny if he just said he was simply wondering?
but that would be an insult to scien's intelligence, he thinks. the man isn't stupid, and shoma figures he's already deduced there is a specific reason for the somewhat pointed and calculated questions. kids don't just ask about this sort of thing for their own curiosity and he knows that.
on the other hand, calling it a "goal" is a little lofty when he doesn't know if that counts. to shoma, a goal is an attainable thing with results you can show off when you're done. while he has something he wants to accomplish in understanding all of this...it feels a little foolish to admit it only impacts one person.
he debates lying about it and making up a goal to sounds more put together, but he also figures scien will see through that, too. so he's standing still, watching him for the time being. ]
I do. [ he admits that much. ] But in order to even see if the goal itself is attainable, I want to start from the roots and work my way out. [ and yet the goal is still not about achieving immortality or extending a life force. ] When I figure out that much, I can elaborate.
[he lets the words play around in his head - the dichotomy between 'it's unsalvageable' and 'if it's attainable'. if saving is out of the question, then does that leave:] An act of creation?
[something to replace that was lost, but not necessarily exactly the same as reviving someone from the dead? shoma has already said that he'll elaborate later, but scien finds himself intrigued now. he does enjoy puzzles, after all.]
Hm... Do as you please.
[but he'd said that he doesn't mind engaging in thought experiments.]
[ he plans to, thanks. isn't it nice to actually have a choice?
...this is a pattern shoma recognizes. he gets caught up in solving something, or finding an answer, and it leads him to someone or something. they offer him something he didn't even know he was looking for at the time, something that might help change his situation and how he feels about so many things, and he starts down the path of wanting to listen to that person, learn from them, and chase after that goal.
he'd pulled himself out of it the first time, for the most part. every now and then he finds his brain drifting back to that old ideology that he left behind when the world became too much. this time, he wonders how far this path will take him. he finds himself wanting scien to tell him these things, and he finds he has a lot of questions he wants to pick apart, rearrange, and put back together for an answer.
it's half the reason he doesn't just walk away now when he could take this as a dismissal. ]
That's closer, I think. [ he considers this. ] What would you call changing something from something already created?
It depends on what the 'something already created' is. I understand you're being intentionally vague, but it means what you get in return will be broad hypotheticals rather than concretes.
[and it's not that scien minds - but shoma already admitted that he has a goal, and scien is someone who prioritizes efficiency. there will always be a part of him that will push to build a blueprint, even if it's never used. engage in the thought experiment and then discard it when it no longer serves you]
Consider my concretes another payment when I come back with results. [ i.e. he doesn't mind explaining more when he actually has information about the ship and what can possibly be done. i have no idea if they'll accomplish anything w0 but it's fine. ]
Transformation's a good word. I would agree with that. [ ... ] Let me ask you this. Do you think there's any end point where an end result can no longer be changed, reverted, or transformed?
[he nods in agreement - that's fine. he doesn't care enough to push. as for the question:]
Yes.
Take Reliver technology for example: once the details of it breach containment of my strict surveillance, others in the world will have access to cloning technology. It will be replicated and repeated for everyone who is afraid of dying, which is most people even if they refuse to admit it. Or worse, governments will use it to enhance manpower for military conquests. [which is something that makes scien frown, clear distaste for the idea] That blueprint can never leave the Institute, or else it will spell out an era of war and societal collapse. Human greed will make it inevitable.
The only exception to this idea is time travel - but by nature of its process, that makes it so that an end point is never an end point for the person experiencing it.
[since you can always just try again if you don't like the results, but it'll just create a branching reality so]
[ time travel's a whole other can of worms and while there are, actually, a few things he would like to go back and fix he knows that's impossible and it can't happen.
"maybe he's out there somewhere in another universe." "yeah. he lives on happily somewhere."
the multiverse theory's nice to believe in, if only because he can't let himself get stuck still thinking about that part of the past.
this answer also makes sense, but he shakes his head a little. ]
And if the Reliver technology never leaves your hands and it's only monitored by you, do you think there's an end point where the results can no longer be changed, reverted or transformed? Dahut said you basically live on forever if you want to, but is it possible to reach an end where you can't proceed or go back a step if you wanted to?
Define your terms. 'Reach an end', 'results can no longer be changed'... Provide an example, even if it is not the situation that you have in mind. Life, in and of itself, is linear by default.
The primary 'end' is death. Do you mean a key event?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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I'm debating whether or not it's worth my time to do so.
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[ it's something he's been thinking on himself, really. there are certain factors he hasn't quite told, uh, anybody about this particular tour and what it means for him and he's been debating the pros and cons of playing along since the first half of the crew turned up yesterday. ]
We have eight weeks. If there are no signs of results in the first few weeks, that's enough time to change the course of action. [ he does not expect this to sway scien one way or another, he's mostly talking out loud. ] That's how I've been thinking of approaching this.
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[he's in agreement. it's a sensible plan. but - ]
It would simply be too obvious if I suddenly became overtly obedient, and I could never maintain it over a long period of time.
[sometimes you come out the gate swinging with the awareness you're a fucking asshole]
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Then let me try it and see what happens. Any results I get, you'll hear directly from me.
[ he literally has an assistant so he's, like, reasonably sure scien won't need his results but also again unfortunately he sort of respects this man already. ]
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well this isn't what he anticipated. scien raises his brows and tilts his head, bringing his remaining hand up to his chin]
Oh?
And what do you seek in return?
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Answers of a different kind, depending on how many you'd be willing to give me. [ and even then... ]
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[wait what - ]
When negotiating, you don't give the other party a chance to deny you. There is no 'depending'. You state what you seek, and navigate from there. Appearing flexible to start with will only give you a worse deal.
I won't correct you from here. Try again.
[oh okay.]
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try again. ]
Okay. In exchange for playing along with their tour and getting information and results to share, I want answers from you about your research.
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[no one else needs fucking clones!!!!]
Otherwise, you have a deal.
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We don't need that kind of development. [ it's the way he says it that might stand out given how firm the tone is. ] But I wouldn't ask about replicating something like that. I just have questions about how it works and how you got to that result.
[ honestly even if he were given a play by play he'd never replicate it. he just has an interest. ]
But deal then. I'll start first thing tomorrow.
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[in the sense that scien now expects things from shoma, because he's not going to turn down someone who comes to him with a deal and eagerness.]
As your first advance payment, and because it seemed to tear you apart earlier, the first thing you need to know is this:
The development of my technology required sacrifice. Mine, and other's. I decided early what I was willing to give up for the sake of my goals. It is not possible for the average person.
[this time, scien doesn't say it with arrogance - it's not a matter of intelligence. rather, he speaks it with a certain gravity; a statement of fact. a warning.]
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this does not surprise him. you don't give that kind of advice out without having lived it yourself. ]
What would you consider yourself if not an average person? [ because he also does not assume scien is average, but even this is beyond genius, he thinks. ] ...and what kind of sacrifice?
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But more than anything, I consider myself an observer of the world. Someone separate from other people, in how I interact and how I make my choices.
[things are ever so slightly different now, but this was the mindset that led him to developing his insane fucking tech.]
The sacrifices vary - but you've read my profile the same as any other. For now, I'm sure you can guess.
[he doesn't mind going into more detail later, but that can be a future payment once their deal plays out]
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he doesn't reply, mostly absorbing these words and letting them seep into little crevices in his brain and considering all of this carefully. of course a man who created something to extend a life would be reveled as a god. and of course a man who accomplished something this big would be fine being thought of as such. after all, when you have people's lives in your hands and you can give or take away, what else would you be?
the thing, too, is scien talks and shoma hears the words phrased a little differently, thinking more about other people who have lived separately from people and observe the world.
"this world which you have lost all faith in is a false one. by reaching the real world, you can rid yourself of all your complications and concerns."
no, wait, stop. those are two separate things. focus, shoma.
okay. so that makes sense. someone who doesn't fully meet the same level as other people, who's working to save humanity but in a way that doesn't actually vibe with all the good feelings a person could have. this still...very much sounds familiar.
he doesn't ask what changed to make scien stop regarding himself as a god, exactly, but he thinks about the profiles. in a way...he also sort of suspected this. it wasn't so much that he was hoping to be wrong, but the confirmation is what he was looking for.
that, too, sounds familiar.
even knowing all of this, he doesn't necessarily think he's made a bad choice striking this kind of deal. but he's aware they have to have an exchange and he can't just have all of the answers immediately.
so eventually, he says: ]
I can guess. [ just to confirm. ] Your answer's...given me a lot of context to consider. [ . . . ] ...I'll bring you anything I can get from them over the course of the coming week.
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[that's his simple answer, and he trusts that the exchange will come. at this point, shoma's shown that he has intelligence and perseverance—without question, that's the type of individual that scien would welcome into the institute.
for better or worse.
but he has a question that's been on the tip of his tongue, that's had him curious since they first began their thought experiments. there's just been too many people around.]
Who is it?
The person you're trying to save.
[himself? or someone else? or is it the whole world?
perhaps scien is off his mark - but he can't help but wonder what a boy this young might be searching for, and what he could need, to even have his wondering bring him to someone like scien brofiise. someone who saves others, but at such high costs.]
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he both did and did not expect this question. he already knows the answer won't be satisfactory either, but since he doesn't have another form of payment at the moment he's fine giving it away. ]
It's unsalvageable. [ this is matter-of-fact and strangely serious for someone his age, like a statement with zero wiggle room. ] ...it's nothing like a world plagued by a disease that kills people before they hit twenty-three. I just...like to ask to fully understand things. How people come to conclusions and what lengths people will go to.
[ are the answers the same across universes? or do circumstances change a person's drive to take other people down with them? ]
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scien thinks of all the researchers who come to the institute, desperate to find a cure because one of their loved ones is already dying - and they don't want to be a reliver, even though that's the very thing they study. he thinks they don't plan ahead enough. everything and everyone dies. even if his understanding of death is warped by his own technology, he knows that if he's not careful, finality will come for him as well.
so he doesn't argue, and he doesn't reassure shoma that everything will work out.]
Then do you have no goal?
[he asks out of pure curiosity. is there an endpoint to the understanding? is there a decision shoma will have to make in the future? or is this simple wondering?
for whatever reason, scien doubts it's the latter. there must be an origin point.]
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but that would be an insult to scien's intelligence, he thinks. the man isn't stupid, and shoma figures he's already deduced there is a specific reason for the somewhat pointed and calculated questions. kids don't just ask about this sort of thing for their own curiosity and he knows that.
on the other hand, calling it a "goal" is a little lofty when he doesn't know if that counts. to shoma, a goal is an attainable thing with results you can show off when you're done. while he has something he wants to accomplish in understanding all of this...it feels a little foolish to admit it only impacts one person.
he debates lying about it and making up a goal to sounds more put together, but he also figures scien will see through that, too. so he's standing still, watching him for the time being. ]
I do. [ he admits that much. ] But in order to even see if the goal itself is attainable, I want to start from the roots and work my way out. [ and yet the goal is still not about achieving immortality or extending a life force. ] When I figure out that much, I can elaborate.
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[he lets the words play around in his head - the dichotomy between 'it's unsalvageable' and 'if it's attainable'. if saving is out of the question, then does that leave:] An act of creation?
[something to replace that was lost, but not necessarily exactly the same as reviving someone from the dead? shoma has already said that he'll elaborate later, but scien finds himself intrigued now. he does enjoy puzzles, after all.]
Hm... Do as you please.
[but he'd said that he doesn't mind engaging in thought experiments.]
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...this is a pattern shoma recognizes. he gets caught up in solving something, or finding an answer, and it leads him to someone or something. they offer him something he didn't even know he was looking for at the time, something that might help change his situation and how he feels about so many things, and he starts down the path of wanting to listen to that person, learn from them, and chase after that goal.
he'd pulled himself out of it the first time, for the most part. every now and then he finds his brain drifting back to that old ideology that he left behind when the world became too much. this time, he wonders how far this path will take him. he finds himself wanting scien to tell him these things, and he finds he has a lot of questions he wants to pick apart, rearrange, and put back together for an answer.
it's half the reason he doesn't just walk away now when he could take this as a dismissal. ]
That's closer, I think. [ he considers this. ] What would you call changing something from something already created?
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It depends on what the 'something already created' is. I understand you're being intentionally vague, but it means what you get in return will be broad hypotheticals rather than concretes.
[and it's not that scien minds - but shoma already admitted that he has a goal, and scien is someone who prioritizes efficiency. there will always be a part of him that will push to build a blueprint, even if it's never used. engage in the thought experiment and then discard it when it no longer serves you]
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Transformation's a good word. I would agree with that. [ ... ] Let me ask you this. Do you think there's any end point where an end result can no longer be changed, reverted, or transformed?
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Yes.
Take Reliver technology for example: once the details of it breach containment of my strict surveillance, others in the world will have access to cloning technology. It will be replicated and repeated for everyone who is afraid of dying, which is most people even if they refuse to admit it. Or worse, governments will use it to enhance manpower for military conquests. [which is something that makes scien frown, clear distaste for the idea] That blueprint can never leave the Institute, or else it will spell out an era of war and societal collapse. Human greed will make it inevitable.
The only exception to this idea is time travel - but by nature of its process, that makes it so that an end point is never an end point for the person experiencing it.
[since you can always just try again if you don't like the results, but it'll just create a branching reality so]
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"maybe he's out there somewhere in another universe."
"yeah. he lives on happily somewhere."
the multiverse theory's nice to believe in, if only because he can't let himself get stuck still thinking about that part of the past.
this answer also makes sense, but he shakes his head a little. ]
And if the Reliver technology never leaves your hands and it's only monitored by you, do you think there's an end point where the results can no longer be changed, reverted or transformed? Dahut said you basically live on forever if you want to, but is it possible to reach an end where you can't proceed or go back a step if you wanted to?
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The primary 'end' is death. Do you mean a key event?
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